fence he's fixing with his own hands. if the commission asked you is our border secure right now, how would you answer that question? >> i would say that it's not secure and that we do need to focus on making sure that we have, you know, the boots on the ground, that we have the technology available to us, that we have infrastructure to actually get to the border to patrol it. >> gary tuchman joins me now. do people along that part of the border, do they believe big walls have helped in slowing down illegal immigration? >> the people we talked to generally agree that you have a big wall, you have border patrol personnel and technology, people don't come into the united states. and indeed here in nogales, downtown nogales, arizona, this is a taj mahal of walls and very few people from mexico come into the united states here, but what they do when they're motivated they go to the side in this direction, the side in that direction, they find those little fences that we saw, then they get into the united states. >> gary, appreciate it. let's get to the raw politics of all this. margaret hoover joins us, also here in new york, charles blow.